This friends intentions are very good. I highly respect and hold this person in high regard. Here is my response and would love to get yours as well. Any kind of response is welcome. Thanks.
My knee jerk is to ask the Holy Spirit. For me I'm good with 5 minutes or 50 minutes. Thank you (friend) for putting the question out there. I'd like to respond not out of being a "sensitive" Artist but as one who is experiencing a shift in perspective. Nor are my intentions to cause dissension or doubt. To me the "corporate" time together from beginning to end is the Sermon. Historically, some churches present creative elements prior to a talk as if it was an "on ramp" to the main highway (ie the Sermon). And, incredibly creative people prayerfully build strategic elements that seem to tie in to what the Lead Pastor/Teacher will talk about. This is all great and good. But at the same time I'm really not sure that it is. You see, there are some incredible works of art woven through out a service. But then cut off due to time restraints, announcements, or a sermon. When in fact each element in itself be a sermon. The other day - while walking our 2 labs near our house I was drawn in by this most beautifully made spider web. It was at least 5' x 5'. I couldn't walk past it. I had to “pull over” and stop to see this master piece. This web was made by a spider. A SPIDER. But what was interesting to me was there wasn't anybody coming up to give announcements or taking up an offering. So you see, things like this have caused me to start to wonder if our "scheduling" of services has edited out some of the Awe Factor that we might experience, if only we gave it the time to be just that, awesome. But instead we use it as a "segue". It seems that we're so rushed in getting to the next item on the flow sheet that we're at great risk of missing the wonderment altogether. And if this happens week after week, then when do we get to experience that together as a corporate body? What are we afraid of? Are we structuring the Church Service in order to satisfy consumers?
Maybe - I've stayed parked next to these verses to long.....
Matthew 6:4 Don't be flip with the sacred. Banter and silliness give no honor to God. Don't reduce holy mysteries to slogans. In trying to be relevant, you're only being cute and inviting sacrilege.
Galatians 6:4 Make a careful exploration of who you are and the work you have been given, and then sink yourself into that. Don't be impressed with yourself. Don't compare yourself with others. Each of you must take responsibility for doing the creative best you can with your own life.
Thanks for listening. Thoughts?
Testing 1 2 3......this is only a test.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteI love reading and hearing the thoughts of others especially from those people I know. So, I like reading what you have written.
I prefer to ask some questions, "What is the purpose of the pastor's sermon?" "Was last week's sermon's purpose accomplished?"
Personally, I lean to 5 minute monologues or 25 minute dialogues followed by 30 minutes of worship and celebration but that's just me.
Thanks for asking. I like the 'creative best" idea.
John
A good sermon should start precisely at the beginning and proceed in an appropriately directed manner towards the end, and then be specifically directed to stop. Unfortunately, we sometimes fail to recognize the point of completion and run right past it, often repeating or reinforcing the point unnecessarily. A stage comedian once commented that the key to effective comedy is to cut it; cut it as short as possible and yet still retain the desired effect. The same is true for any public presentation, and can bear fruit in a sermon as well... don't drag it out, just make the point in the appropriate means given and move on.
ReplyDeleteThat said, the sermon may not necessarily shorten from the cuts, but may actually be lengthened. An effective sermon better holds the attention and interest of the congregation, and may therefore continue longer without losing its appeal to the listener. I once preached a sermon to a group of teens on a topic they requested, and because of their intense interest the message continued with their full attention for a full three hours - that evening service stretched from 7:00 until 10:00 - and we only ended the service when the kids needed to be taken home, even though they would have preferred to continue. Admittedly an extreme and unusual case, but a great example of the Holy Spirit doing a work that betrays the constraints of time.
It is also important to remember that the sower is to sow the seed, not install it with a nailgun. Sometimes we dwell on points or repeat the material in hopes of a more obvious visible response, but we must trust the Holy Spirit to connect the listener to the message. Many seeds land in the hidden places of the heart, out of view of the speaker, and must be left to anchor and root in their proper time. If a gardener continues to prod or inspect the seeds already planted in his garden, it can impede the growth and may even abort the response entirely. Prepare the seed, sow it, weed it, and then pray the Holy Spirit to continue the work God has ordained.
At least, that's how I see it. :)
I think it boils down to what the expressed purpose of the gathering is about. There can be "Sunday morning services" that vary in their purpose from week to week. By this, I mean that some weeks can be understood as outreach to those who are not part of the community, other weeks can be for feasting and celebration, other weeks are for teaching and reflection. Or this could be accomplished through more than one meeting in a given week. But largely leaders are taking their one shot to "get it all in". I think, given the speed of our culture and the variety of information channels we have to navigate as spouses, parents, students, employees, etc etc etc we try to do too much in a given Sunday AM time frame. Thus, the "need" to schedule and get it all in. We have lost our true sense of community as lovers of God in many respects (I love the Body, but hear me in this please) and are substituting a business approach to discipleship rather than the necessary demands of relationship and community wherein the dynamics of Christ's church are unleashed with the power of True Love Himself. This means fathers and mothers giving themselves to sons and daughters, not CEOs delegating principles to mid-level managers and their respective charges. If we aim for true community and the gatherings that build this, then the margins are there for the household of faith to express their delight in God and each other in ways that will manifest the attractiveness of Jesus Himself.
ReplyDeleteI think I have a spider that's a close relative of the one you saw... it does great work, very persistent and incredibly patient... motionless and then...
ReplyDeleteI think it's good to see 'sermonettes' etc. in nature and elements that precede or follow 'the message'. To be sensitive to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in all aspects of the gathering is unfortunately missed by most and people seem to have the 45 min. - 60min. 'clock' programmed in their heads that goes off. It doesn't say officially how long Jesus' sermons were, and I'm glad. I think the question posed in general is kind of 'off' and we all know there's no set time limit. The quality of the message seems to be about the amount of time the messanger spends with God and how he/she flows with the elements that are in that moment. Those who spend the most quality time with God seem to do the best.
wow. great topic- and so crazy subjective. i'm with you on the other elements of a service being just as key as the sermon- and yes, those "other things" often get nixed due to time. I think the length of the "talk" portion depends on 1. the communicator (quality/ability), 2. context (sunday morning a bunch of believers, a mix of both, or mostly people investigating?- regular sunday or christmas eve?) 3. the topic. sometimes saying less is more and leaving more space for reflection creates a more lasting impact. in the end our sunday morning (or whenever we gather) experience should be a collection of moments, hopefully memorable ones. if we get down to actual minutes and if I wanted to invite a neighbor to go to a service w/ me, i'd say give the speaker at least 30 min. to speak and leave at least 45-55 min for worship/music/reflection and other artistic expression. My .02
ReplyDeleteIf a speaker is gifted and has something to say, I could listen for an hour or more (and I have done over the years). And I have fidgeted and yawned through 10-minute "meditations" that were poorly-prepared and had nothing in the way of challenging content.
ReplyDeleteThe key to remember is that it's the Holy Spirit who dictates the outcome. We can prepare all we want, but we cannot manufacture a "moment." That's been the problem of so many churches trying to imitate Willow Creek, Saddleback, etc. They assume that if they assemble the right ingredients, they will have the same result. But they forget the Spirit.
Great question, John. I like your answer that says that every part of the service is a sermon in itself. I have been part of the "everything leads up to the all important spoken message" church service. I know I have been moved by your sermons many times.
ReplyDeleteAfter sitting in "church" for close to 50 years, I find myself frustrated with trying to "do" what the pastor taught each week. One week's message might be so heavy it would take a lifetime to really live out, but after only one week there's a whole new message to live out. It doesn't matter how long they are to me. The constant focus on knowing as opposed to being and doing has me rather burned out.
Thanks for asking
well, my heart tends to go here...not saying it's right, but this is where it lands:
ReplyDeleteto me, it's kind of like asking, "How long should a date with your husband be?" (i.e. how long can you stand to be with him before getting bored, losing focus, feeling restless). Makes my heart sad to think that we've minimized our time together as a fellowship of people, down to what's convenient or comfortable.
I'm not advocating meetings with no time structure whatsoever, where we've got people falling out of the window like in the New Testament...but this focus on schedules and micromanaging down to the minute feels altogether wrong to me. It'd be like me taking a flow sheet on a date with John and saying, "you know, I've had a great time talking with you tonight, but it's 8:12 and time for us to order dinner." Where's the relationship in that?
I also am aware that our time together on Sunday or mid-week services isn't really meant to be our only time with the Lord and each other. We should be engaging both throughout the week...coming together at designated times to celebrate what God's done in our lives while we've been apart. But putting restraints on it all to the point that the Holy Spirit is a hassle to deal with rather than an honored guest is disturbing to me.
Which begs the questions: What is church without the Holy Spirit? And have we kicked him to the curb in order to better control our time lines and structure? And if THAT is so, what are we even doing the service for? To make ourselves feel better? To pursue "being good" by checking a meeting time off our list? Or are we basically thumbing our noses at the Holy Spirit and making it painfully obvious that we think we've got this thing without him?
I'm all about trying new things and making systems smooth...but what happened to finishing a meeting when the Holy Spirit is finished meeting with us? Just an idea...
I know I'm raining on someone's parade out there...so please know that I don't share in judgment. I'm just so ready to get back to God calling the shots instead of us. Crazy me.
Well, if they sound like Fran Drescher or Rosie O'Donnell, maybe 5 minutes, but if it's soothing like Morgan Freeman or firm like James Earl Jones, I can take a good hour.
ReplyDeleteOkay, seriously, it depends on the topic but my typical comprehension span is about 45 minutes, but I can go a bit longer depending on the topic or speaker. There are many variables that can swing it either way.
I left my comments on your facebook posting. Great article BTW!
ReplyDeleteI prefer a little meat to mine....so it would lend itself to being longer. A pastor of ours in Chicago could speak for 45min. plus, but it never felt long, even sitting on folding chairs. The rest of the service was very well balanced, overall about 1:30 min. It was nice to have space to really worship, spend more than 60 seconds in prayer, hear an indepth message and then be able to respond to it. Good stuff. www.thenewcom.com -Shana
ReplyDeleteThe thought struck me after I read your blog, and was lost somewhere in the 3rd or 4th comment(really who talks like that?) that this entire conversation is ridiculous. The modern church has fallen prey to the same 'kingdom' building self centered thinking that has plagued the greater church for centuries. And I am not referring to Kingdom building.
ReplyDeleteIf you've ever been to any church planning meetings, or budget meetings, or strategy meetings - they are all the same. How can we get more people in the door, and how can we get them all to give more money, to build our little 'kingdom'. And your question is one flavor of dozens I have heard in these meetings for years. Time to shudder now, at some of the biggest- excuse me- most 'successful' churches in the area. To all readers - I bet I'm talking about your church too.
If anyone reading this is offended by what I am saying, I think you should pray and ask God how offended he is by this type of thinking.
What is the point? The reason you are asking is because you want to somehow personally profit from gathering opinions. The question is inherently flawed. If you are seeking God yourself or trying to reach people who do not know Jesus, you would never even talk about how long anything should be.
You wouldn't ask if a smoke machine is inappropriate, or if such-and-so shouldn't be in drama's because they are fat, or if the person singing the solo shouldn't do this or that - all of your questions would be centered around meeting peoples needs, breaking down the walls of sin around our hearts with love and devoting your life to knowing God.
When you think in those terms it's amazing how people stop talking about the 'elements' and really dig into what is truly important.
Disclaimer - I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, I'm not trying to be mean or tear anyone down. I think the modern church is missing the boat big time and it's sad.